Volodymyr Zelensky’s Situation Room, where the Ukrainian president monitors developments in his country’s war with Russia, is a windowless room largely occupied by a rectangular conference table and surrounded by blacked-out screens, deep inside the Presidential Administration Building in central Kiev. As I sat inside waiting for Zelensky on a recent afternoon, I heard his voice — a syrupy, gravel-flecked baritone — before he entered, dressed in his typical military style: black T-shirt, olive pants, brown boots. He was in the middle of preparations for a trip to the United States, where he is scheduled to address the United Nations General Assembly and, most importantly, meet with Joe Biden at the White House to present what Zelensky calls “Ukraine’s victory plan.”

Zelensky saved the details for his meeting with Biden, but said the plan included a number of elements related to Ukraine’s long-term security and geopolitical position, which presumably included accession NATO on an accelerated schedule and the provision of Western military assistance with fewer restrictions. (Ahead of the trip, Zelensky has been lobbying his allies in the West to allow Ukraine to strike targets deep inside Russia with long-range missiles supplied by the United States and other Western countries.) Ukraine’s invasion of Kursk last month, a border region in the Western Russia, where Ukrainian forces currently occupy about 600 square kilometers of Russian territory, is also part of this plan, according to Zelensky, as it gives Kiev leverage against the Kremlin while demonstrating that its military is capable of going on the offensive .

Zelensky still presents himself as the person we know from television and social media: a passionate communicator, confident and relentless to the point of stubbornness, an entertainer-turned-statesman who expresses the power of his personality in a thoroughly modern form has turned warfare into a weapon. But it is also abundantly clear that the war, now in its third year, cannot be won with Zelensky’s talents alone. A long-awaited Ukrainian counteroffensive failed last year. Since then, Russian troops have steadily strengthened their position in Donbas in eastern Ukraine – a bitter campaign in which Russia has suffered enormous losses but still managed to march forward, inch by bloody inch. The city of Pokrovsk, a logistics and transport hub in Donbass, is Russia’s latest target. It is being systematically destroyed by artillery fire and “glide bombs” – Soviet-era munitions retrofitted with wings and GPS navigation.

Zelensky argued for more Western military aid, which would certainly help but would not solve Ukraine’s other problems: the inability to adequately mobilize and train new soldiers and ongoing difficulties maintaining effective communication and coordination on the front lines. Meanwhile, the lack of air defense has allowed Russia to attack power plants and other energy infrastructure across the country; A recent UN report predicted that power outages could last up to eighteen hours a day next winter. Polls show increasing war weariness in Ukrainian society, an increase in those willing to consider peace without total victory, and a decline in public trust in Zelensky himself.

Zelensky speaks with the urgency of a leader who knows he may be facing his last chance for significant foreign aid. Biden is nearing the end of his presidency and may shy away from dramatically increasing U.S. involvement lest he create political headwinds for Kamala Harris in the weeks before the November election. Meanwhile, Donald Trump was vague about his policy towards Ukraine. During the debate with Harris this month, he conspicuously declined to talk of a Ukrainian victory, saying only: “I want the war to stop.” In the US, Zelensky will share his victory plan not only with Biden, but also with Biden discuss with Harris and Trump. He is clearly aware that the results of the US election may have decisive implications for his country, but he maintains the pose of a man who believes he can still sway history in his favor. “The most important thing now is determination,” Zelensky said in a presidential address in the days before our meeting.

During our situation room interview, which has been edited for length and clarity, Zelensky jumped back and forth between history and political philosophy, military strategy and the mechanics of international diplomacy. He is a discursive speaker who is sometimes difficult to pin down but always focuses on one overarching message: Ukraine is waging a war not just with Western support, but in the name of the West. Zelensky argues that Ukraine’s sacrifices have deterred the U.S. and European nations from making more personally painful sacrifices. The argument is clear, even if the response is sometimes disappointing. “If he doesn’t want to support it, I can’t force him,” Zelensky told me about his upcoming meeting at the White House to discuss his victory plan with Biden. “All I can do is explain further.”

For a while, when you were talking about the end of the war, you were talking about a total victory for Ukraine: Ukraine would return to its 1991 borders, reassert its sovereignty in Crimea and take back all of its territory from Russia. But in recent months you have become more open to the idea of ​​negotiations – for example through peace summits, the first of which took place in Switzerland this summer. What has changed in your and your country’s thinking about how this war might end?

When I am asked, “How do you define victory,” I answer with complete sincerity. Nothing has changed in my attitude. Because victory is about justice. A just victory is a victory whose result satisfies everyone – those who respect international law, those who live in Ukraine, those who have lost their loved ones and relatives. For them the price is high. For them there will never be an excuse for what Putin and his army did. You can’t just sew up this wound like a surgeon, because it lies in your heart, in your soul. And so the crucial nuance is that while justice does not close our wounds, it opens up the possibility of a world that we all recognize as just. It is not fair that someone’s son or daughter was taken away from them, but unfortunately this injustice has a finality and it is impossible to bring them back. But justice at least provides some closure.

The fact that Ukraine seeks a fair victory is not the problem; The problem is that Putin has absolutely no desire to end the war on reasonable terms. When the world is united against him, he feigns interest in dialogue – “I’m ready to negotiate, let’s do it, let’s sit together” – but that’s just talk. It is empty rhetoric, a fiction, that keeps the world from standing with Ukraine and isolating Putin. He pretends to open the door to dialogue, and the countries that seek a geopolitical balance – China, for example, but also some other Asian and African states – say: “Ah, look, he hears us and is ready to negotiate .” But it’s all just an illusion. From our side, we see the game he is playing and change our approaches to ending the war. Where he offers empty rhetoric, we offer a real formula for peace, a concrete plan for ending war.

And yet your words and actions in 2022 and 2023 signaled a categorical refusal to negotiate with the enemy, while now you appear to have opened a window to the idea of ​​negotiations, a willingness to ask whether negotiations are worth continuing.

If we look back two years, at the G-20 summit in Indonesia, I presented our formula for peace in my video appearance. Since then, I have consistently said that the Russians have blocked all our initiatives from the start and continue to do so. And I said that any negotiation process would be unsuccessful if it takes place with Putin or his entourage, all of whom are just his puppets.